Continuing further from previous comments
MB "Do you even know, or even see, what you are quoting?"
This should be for you, not for me. LOL.
It is you that do not know what you are talking or you are not admitting the wrong.
Read the book in Hebrew, not in English.
The nation of Israel is always a one entity - and passages I quote above (previously, and also on previous other thread about Isa 53) already proof that.
Even without Hebrew knowledge, without translation - a simple English already proof that the words "they were" in Isa 53:8 IS NOT AN INDIVIDUAL.
A common sense would know (without translation), but Christinity never admit their wrong.
I know Isa 53 is one of the proof text pillar for Christianity and by proofing that Isa 53 is not about jesus - it HURT and DISSAPOINT the Christianity. This is the truth, do not get mad due to mistranlation by the catholic or king james or international version etc.
Read the original text is the best. The Hebrew text and understand it in the Hebrew way, not the gentile/outsider way.
By the way, books in NT always contradicted the OT. And therefore quoting from there is no difference than quoting from Quran or any other pagan books.- JR Don Tan,
Concerning Isaiah 7:14, all we have to do is look at the context of what Isaiah is saying in order to determine what he meant in Isaiah 7:14. Allow me to demonstrate:
The birth of Isaiah’s child was clearly the fulfillment of the sign prophesied in Isaiah 7:14-16. How do I know this? Isaiah tells us himself! Lets look at these verses
Isaiah 7:14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:15. Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good.
Isaiah 7:16. For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned.”
Keep verse 16 in mind. It is crucial to the context of Isaiah. Now, lets look at the next chapter of Isaiah and see what he has to say:
Isaiah 8:3. And I was intimate with the prophetess, and she conceived, and she bore a son, and the Lord said to me, “Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz.
Isaiah 8:4. For, when the lad does not yet know to call, ‘Father’ and ‘mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria shall be carried off before the king of Assyria.”
Well what do you know! Isaiah said a young woman would give birth to a child and in the very next chapter his wife has a son! Prophesy fulfilled! The interesting thing about it is that Isaiah explicitly says he was intimate with her. This means that this "alma" described in Isaiah 7:14 is Isaiah's wife. Morever, she is not a virgin! Thus, the word "alma" does not exclusively refer to women who are virgins! Isaiah says it himself!
And if you are still not convinced, here's a direct statement from Isaiah saying his sons are signs:
Isaiah 8:18. Behold, I and the children whom the Lord gave me for signs and for tokens in Israel, from the Lord of Hosts, Who dwells on Mount Zion.
The natural birth of Isaiah's son was the fulfillment of the sign of Isaiah 7:14, namely that his wife would give birth to a son, and that before he knew the difference between good and evil/father and mother, "the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria shall be carried off before the king of Assyria."
If you are going to argue that this is a "dual fulfillment" regarding Matthew's application of this to the supposed virgin birth of Jesus, you will have to concede that the word "alma" does not exclusively refer to a virgin, as I have demonstrated above. In any case, this prophesy clearly has nothing to do with Jesus...
Shalom and G-d bless! - JR Also, Don, concerning Isaiah 53, I challenge you to show me one reference in the entirety of the servant songs where the servant is referred to explicitly as “David” or “the stump of Jesse” or any other Messianic specifier used in other passages throughout the Tanach…
The fact is, the “servant” of Isaiah’s servant songs is referred to as Israel and Jacob multiple times. But where is the servant referred to as being “David” or “the stump of Jesse”?
Jews and Christians can agree on other passages referring exclusively to the Messiah! Here are a few: Isaiah 11:1, Ezekiel 37:24, Hosea 3:5, Jeremiah 30:9…
There is one thing all of these verses have in common: They all use a “Davidic qualifier,” meaning that they all exclusively refer to the Davidic dynasty in some fashion. This is why Jews and Christians can all understand that these future prophesies refer to one person: Moshiach ben David.
However, Isaiah 53 makes no mention of this servant having any exclusive association with the kingdom of David. This is why we understand it as referring to a collective group of individuals, namely the righteous among Israel!
Shalom and G-d bless!
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