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Thursday, 9 August 2012

A Dialog with Iskandar Shah (Part I)

Prologue

Iskandar Shah 2 on Tun Dr. Mahathir's Blog Chedet on the Topic
of 'PEMBUNUHAN WANITA BERZINA (Death of an Adulteress)in
an excerpt remarked that

10-In the meanwhile,when the flow into the religion of one true God has 
become insignificant,the flow out of Muslims of the one true God to the 
‘three-in one’ God instead has now become very significant. Millions in 
Africa and Indonesia are now officially murtads.

 My reply in context:


Does Iskandar know why millions of Africans or Indonesians have found 
Yeshua. Its not just disillusionment. Yeshua has begun to appear in dreams to 
oppressed Muslims. Those oppressed by their own Brethren. No one preached
to them. They actually seek out Missionaries. Islam’s inner conflict which is 
growing exponentially. I’m afraid, if Israel is gone from the middle-east.
 Someone else is going to be the scapegoat. I’m pretty sure it is going to be 
Christians. Actually, the Coptics are the targets now. Lastly, Missionary Work.
 Why not? If there is ‘no compulsion in religion’(Surah 2:256) then one should
 be free to freely leave the faith or is that just a mantra? 

Iskandar responded with 11 points which i feel needs to be addressed. 

I will list 3 in Part I 

 

1-Dear dtan I am not keen to start a Muslim-Christian dialogue here but I must 
respond somehow to you.

Iskandar, I hope you will respond to my invitation on this Blog

2-The only thing you people had succeeded we Muslims has not is the ability to
 get out of the crutches of the church that had kept you in the dark ages a few 
centuries ago -at a time we were  the ones enlightened with a Golden Age just 
before our ‘church’ took over.

I am well aware of Ancient Arabic contributions of Algebra and Astronomy
prior to the introduction of Islam

The Church (Chatolic) in the Dark Ages was popularly potrayed as some malignant
'Anti- Science' which could not be further from the truth. Eg. Galileo controversy.

#######################################################################
 Persecution of Galileo [http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy]

The Church is not anti-scientific. It has supported scientific endeavors for centuries. 
During Galileo’s time, the Jesuits had a highly respected group of astronomers and 
scientists in Rome. In addition, many notable scientists received encouragement and 
funding from the Church and from individual Church officials. Many of the scientific
advances during this period were made either by clerics or as a result of Church funding. 
Nicolaus Copernicus dedicated his most famous work, On the Revolution of the Celestial 
Orbs, in which he gave an excellent account of heliocentricity, to Pope Paul III. Copernicus
 entrusted this work to Andreas Osiander, a Lutheran clergyman who knew that Protestant 
reaction to it would be negative, since Martin Luther seemed to have condemned the new 
theory, and, as a result, the book would be condemned. Osiander wrote a preface to the book,
in which heliocentrism was presented only as a theory that would account for the movements 
of the planets more simply than geocentrism did—something Copernicus did not intend. 
Ten years prior to Galileo, Johannes Kepler published a heliocentric work that expanded on Copernicus’ work. As a result, Kepler also found opposition among his fellow Protestants
for his heliocentric views and found a welcome reception among some Jesuits who were 
known for their scientific achievements. 
 #######################################################################


Note, the Vatican has a full time Priest (Phd Canadian Astronomer) who works at the
Vatican Observatory today

3-We Muslims had been kept closed by these self righteous and insecured religious
 authorities who are quick to condemn us to apostacy the moment we challenge 
their wrong practises,like holding on to time bound secondary documents that not
 only may be irrelevant for another time,it is also doubted to be authentic materials
 in the first place.Without even allowing a fair debate they have condemned these 
critical minded people apostates,so that the mainstream will be kept away from them.

I've brought this issue up with Parameswara 2  in another conversation per Uthmani
standardization of the Quran. Over 200 original manuscripts were torched. The excuse
given that the others were defective. Yet for some reason burning manuscripts are
acceptable. Also, recent discovery of the Sana Manuscripts in Yemen which predate
the Uthmani version under lock and key. Why? Why then claim that the Quran is the
direct revelation i.e. word from God if it was re-written and re-compiled several times?


18 comments:

  1. Jesus is a man. Why should anyone worship a man anyway?

    ReplyDelete
  2. I'm sure you've heard of the account of the
    Women who was hemorrhaging blood. If you
    haven't, read it in Mark 5. If you will,
    imagine you had an incurable illness. You
    spent all your wealth and had nothing left.
    It says she sought the Rabbi Yeshua out as
    a last resort. Believing,she grazed his
    Tallit (Prayer Shawl). Immediately, she was
    healed. You may believe he was just a man.
    Others like her, did not. They the believed
    as the Messiah said.

    "I came that they may have life and
    have it abundantly."

    John 10:10b (NASB)

    ReplyDelete
  3. Did Jesus declare himself as God?

    ReplyDelete
  4. If he did, would you believe him.

    Well,…………. Yes Indeed. 'i am' is
    the original name that God refers to himself.
    Capitalization is used in the English for emphasis.

    (Hebrew Tanakh)
    ... אהיה אשר אהיה ... כה תאמר לבני ישראל אהיה שלחני אליכם: ... יהוה אלהי אבתיכם ... זה־שמי לעלם ...
    "I AM THAT I AM [...] Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. [...] YHWH, God of your fathers, [...] this is My name for ever"[Exod. 3:14–15]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh



    “prin  Abraám genésthai egó eimí [Before Abraham to become, I am],” ~ John 8:58 (Greek New Testament)



    If that's not enough. Notice the multiple times Jesus drops subtle hints that he is more than just a man.

    I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. ~ John 14:6

    “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.' ~ John 15:5

    Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. ~ John 14:11

    “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. ~ John 10:11

    I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.~ ~ John 10:9

    Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.” He said, “I am he.”~ John 9:9

    As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”~ John 9:5

    Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. ~ John 10:7

    Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. ~ John 11:25

    etc,etc,etc

    ReplyDelete
  5. Well, what I meant is, is there anyway in the Bible where Jesus explicitly said "I am God, worship me."?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Question is polemical in nature. If you are going
    to establish explicitly Jesus statement(Your words) as a Null Hypothesis

    Then i could ask the opposite to prove my point.
    Where in the Bible did Jesus explicitly say
    "I am not God, do not worship me."?

    How do you know there are Black Hole's in the
    universe when you can't see one. You see it by
    the formation of stars surrounding it. If you
    don't see the evidence surrounding Jesus as
    Messiah. It would make no difference what
    evidence i provided ,......

    ReplyDelete
  7. If you read the Old Testament, you would learn that God is One in a singular unique sense. This is over and over and over and over very clear in the Bible: God's nature is One. This is so clear in the Old Testament. And He was so jealous about His worship. And every single time the Children of Israel would turn to something else other than Him, He would punish them and restrict their lifestyle.

    ReplyDelete
  8. In the New Testament, when Jesus spoke, he spoke of the nature of God, and when he spoke of the nature of God, it was the same nature of God that is found in the Old Testament. Jesus said at many times that God is One, God is unique, he would even quote from the Hebrew scriptures,"Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is but One." When he is asked, "What is the greatest commandment?" He said "The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your mind with all your strength and then to love your neighbor as you love yourself." He said the rest hang on these 2. So this was the concept that he was teaching. He even said in verse John 5-17,"This is the life eternal, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

    Yes indeed there are some implicit statements that you could implicitly, if you take them and separate them from everything else, you could make them derive that Jesus was trying to claim some divinity. But a brother of mine who did some psychology and a little bit of law told me that an implicit statement cannot override an explicit statement, an explicit statement always takes precedance. So if Jesus said God is One, and he allegorically may have alluded to God being more than one, than the clear statement overrides that each and every single time.

    ReplyDelete
  9. www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=IYMKQKSV0bY

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9zAlGO3_Rw

      Delete
    2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-L1KIU7lao

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    3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWRPsaGf-ms&feature=related

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    4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGgVOxo_MA&feature=related

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  10. I appreciate your answer. You make the assumption that explicitness of a remark overrides implicitness of a remark.
    Is that really true?

    Let me give you an example where it is false

    Eg. Which lends more credence

    Usain Bolt explicitly saying 'I am the fastest runner in the World'

    or

    Usain Bolt implicitly saying 'Watch this video of me winning
    the 100m race in the London Olympics'

    You framed a polemical question, followed by a polemical argument (explicit versus implicit). Why Jesus did not explicitly word his statements in away others would accept.
    I don't know? It's pretty clear to me.......

    ReplyDelete
  11. What do you mean? I do not understand.

    ReplyDelete
  12. In the name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful.

    I think I understand what you mean. Let me quote from your comment. Consider the following cases:

    Usain Bolt's Case:

    Explicit statement: Usain Bolt saying 'I am the fastest runner in the World'

    Implicit statement: Usain Bolt saying 'Watch this video of me winning
    the 100m race in the London Olympics'

    Jesus's case:

    Explicit statement: Jesus saying "I am God, worship me" (which is nowhere to be found in the Bible).

    Implicit statement: Jesus saying "Watch this video of me creating the universe."

    So, which one are implying?

    Your saying:

    "Why Jesus did not explicitly word his statements in away others would accept.
    I don't know? It's pretty clear to me......."

    -Let me answer this. The reason Jesus did not explicitly word his statements in a way others would accept is because he is not God.

    005.116: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

    005.117: “Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, ‘worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord’; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

    Last but not least,

    002.135: They say: “Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided.” Say thou: “Nay! (I would rather ) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah.”

    002.136: Say ye: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to all prophets from their lord, we make no difference between one and another from them, and we bow to Allah (in Islam).”

    002.137: So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been (rightly) guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I really like your polemics. I admit, i am not as versed in practicing Al-Takiya (dissimilation) or as wise as you are.

      Implicit statement: Jesus saying " I am the true vine....
      " I am the resurrection....
      " I am the way the truth ...
      " I am the Light of the ...
      " etc,etc etc

      Per Quranic quotes please establish 'isnad' from the Tanakh and/or Codex Vaticanus. I admit those are nice verses to quote. Please provide proof as to 'truth'. Please provide explicit evidence as to true text not just the Uthmani standardization. Allow the Sanaa Manuscripts to be release so a textual comparison can be made. Polemics work both ways.







      Delete
    2. The 'Prophet' himself would not provide evidence to the
      Jews and Christians in his day. Why should i believe you ?


      They say: "Why does he not bring us a sign(proof) from his Lord?: Has there not come to them the proof of that which is (written) in the former papers [Scriptures i.e. the Taurat(Torah), and the Injeel(Gospel), about the coming
      of the Prophet Muhammad]?" ~ Surah 20:133

      This is all he could say

      Say:"The signs are only with Allah, and I am only a plain warner." Is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down to you the Book (the Quran) which is recited to them? ~ Surah 29:50-51

      Please read 'Jesus Prophet or Son of God '

      Allah is, after all, the 'best of deceivers' ~ Surah 3:54
      Why should i believe you? because of your intellectual
      superiority or polemical skills ? Are you a deceiver also ?

      Delete