The Jewish Messiah III

MB The key to deciphering any biblical text is to view it in context. Isaiah 53

 is the fourth of the four “Servant Songs.” (The others are found in Isa 

chapters 42, 49 and 50.)

Though the “servant” in Isaiah 53 is not openly identified – these verses merely 

refer to “My servant” (52:13, 53:11) – the “servant” in each of the previous 

Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the Jewish nation. Beginning

 with chapter 41, the equating of G-d Servant with the nation of Israel is made nine

 times by the prophet Isaiah, and no one other than Israel is identified as the “servant”:

-“You are My servant, O Israel” (41:8)
-“You are My servant, Israel” (49:3)
-see also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20

The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as G-d “servant”; see 

Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22. There is no reason that the “servant” in 

Isaiah 53 would suddenly switch and refer to someone (etc:jesus) other than the 

Jewish people.

One obvious question that needs to be addressed: How can the “Suffering Servant,” 

which the verses refer to grammatically in the singular, be equated with the entire 

Jewish nation?

This question evaporates when we discover that throughout the Bible, the Jewish 

people are consistently referred to as a singular entity, using the singular pronoun. 

For example, when God speaks to the entire Jewish nation at Mount Sinai, all of 

the Ten Commandments are written as if speaking to an individual (Exodus 20:1-14).

This is because the Jewish people are one unit, bound together with a shared 

 national destiny (see Exodus 4:22, Deuteronomy chapter 32). This singular reference

 is even more common in biblical verses referring to the Messianic era, when the 

Jewish people will be fully united under the banner of God (see Hosea 14:6-7, 

Jeremiah 50:19).

As we will see, for numerous reasons this chapter cannot be referring to Jesus. Even 

in the Christian scriptures, the disciples did not consider the Suffering Servant as 

referring to Jesus (see Matthew 16:21-22, Mark 9:31-32, Luke 9:44-45).

So how did the Suffering Servant come to be associated with Jesus? The intention is 

not to denigrate another religion, but rather to understand the true meaning of the 

Divine word.

MB Jesus did not fulfill this:

Isa 53:10 "G-d desired to oppress him and He afflicted him. If his soul would acknowledge

 guilt, he would see offspring and live long days, and G-d purpose would succeed in his hand."

This verse emphasizes that the Servant is to be rewarded with long life and many children. This verse could not possibly refer to Jesus who, according to the New Testament, died young and childless. (Furthermore, if Jesus was alleged to be the immortal Son of God, it is absurd to apply the concept of “living long days.”)

Although missionaries may claim that the “offspring” refers to spiritual descendants, this is based on a distortion and mistranslation. In this verse, the Hebrew word for "offspring" (zera - ע רֶז) always refers to physical descendants (see Genesis 12:7, 15:2-4, 15:13, 46:6; Exodus 28:43). A different word, banim (םינב), generally translated as "sons," is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1).

• MDE Don you seem to have assumed that JC qualified as the Jewish Messiah. Have you ever asked really asked if he did? There is a simple thing to end the debate. A simple requirement is that the Jewish messiah be from the tribe of Judah. The human daddy carries the tribe DNA. According to nt he didn't have a human daddy that was a direct descendant of King David. Not the Jewish messiah!
  The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon
  
  The Messiah must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct descendant of King David & King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:9-10). Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son (Numbers 1:1-18).
  There is no evidence that Jesus really had this pedigree, and the Christian Bible actually claims that he did not have a "birth-father" from the tribe of Judah descending from King David and King Solomon (Matt. 1:18-20).

  
  
• MDE Don you are using a bible that is NOT from the the G-d of the Jews! You are believing an idiology that is a lie. The Jewish messiah will be just a man! Not a god! Think of it this way....you are using a book that is a lie. You have been taught to read between the lines of that book and imagine a god that has nothing to do with the Great I Am. Then you flip it around and try and question why we can't see your fantasy. If you want truth start with the TRUTH. JC didn't do a single thing the Jewish messiah will do. He didn't have the pedigree or do any action that would be required!!! Chrsitianity is the opposite of the Great I AM
  

  
  

  

  
  
• 

  Don Tan MB, Do you expect me to believe that the Jewish Nation 'he' was pierced for the rebellion of the Jewish Nation while 'he' had done no wrong ? 53:8~9 Read it again, i think it talks about a Moshiach that HaShem allowed to be bruised
  
  MDE, i never assumed that Yeshua qualified to be the Jewish Messiah. I asked what was the nature of the Messiah. Was he a mere
  man. If Isaiah 53 calls the Messiah the 'Arm of the Lord' He would be
  more than a man. If HaShem decides that Yeshua is more than a man
  i.e. a reflection of himself, than it's not sorcery. I asked can a false prophet raise the dead ? Yes or No. Are there any examples of such ?

The Jewish Messiah Part II

• MB 

   Don,
  
  "Yeshua's pedigree, I agree, is disputed. No need to argue back and forth
  about that topic. It's been, being, and continues to be debated."
  
  G-d disagrees. The Torah and Tanach already indicated that.
  
  We don't do arguing, the fact is the fact and the Torah and Tanach clearly 

  indicated the Messiah must be from the line of King David. This is called 

  fact. NT comes in later time which tried to wipe away and indicating 

  something else is totally dangerous.
  
  Even the New Testament tried to link to David from one genealogy to the 

  other, with so many contradictions,errors etc in the NT itself - that book is 

  totally false. From the 4 gospels, on one book it says jesus was from "david" 

  and the other not.
  
  No matter how, Christianity proclaimed that jesus was born of a holy spirit - 

  this automatically disqualified to be the messiah no matter whom the genealogy

   is.
  
  This is not a long debate - this is the fact.
  
  By the way, jesus which messianic loves to calling him yeshua. Do you know 

  what yeshua mean? And do you know - historically - how many people 

  possessed this very same name? yeshua is a very common name. There is the 

  closest person (in term of time toward christinity jesus, and in term of "miracles" 

  or magical performance that performed from that person before jesus 

  was born)  in the Talmud, his name is also yeshua, and his full name is yeshua 

  ben pentera. Do you know who he was?
  
  He was a sorcerer with 5 disciples. According to the laws, sorcerer must put to 

  death, and yeshua ben pentera was one of them together with his 5 disciples. 

  He is able to performed quiet similar miracles jesus is able to.
  
  In reality, no one even really know did Christianity jesus ever exist. The Rome 

  tried to cherry pick and show proof text and Talmud link to create a book called 

  new testament. It should 

  MB "Secondly, the nature of the Messiah. I said, is he a mere man ? If he is the 

  'Suffering Messiah' in Isaiah 53""
  
  Isa 53 is not about jesus.Isa 53 is Israel, is a national revelation. It is a poetic 

  song that link with previous chapter etc Isa 52, 51 etc etc. Missionary only pick 

  Isa 53 to match fit as jesus while simply ignoring the 4 poetic songs that link 

  together. This is yet again another cherry pick and plug.
  
  Jesus is not the only person in the history raised the dead.
  
  Was Jesus resurrected, was Jesus the only people who raise the dead?
  
  Christianity can't even prove Jesus ever lived -- let alone that he came back 

  to life! The only source for that story is the Christian bible and it gives 

  conflicting stories (who, for example, found the body missing?).
  
  Even if Jesus did die and rise -- so what? How about Ezekiel and the Valley of 

  Dry Bones? Ezekiel brought MANY back to life. Jesus could only bring himself 

  back? The whole big to do about the resurrection is "much ado about nothing." 

  The messiah is supposed to resurrect ALL the righteous -- not die, undie 

  (and so where is the "sacrifice" in that?) and then disappear. Smells like 10 day 

  old fish to me.
  
  The people resurrected in the Valley of Dry Bones were just brought back to life. 

  They lived and then they died. . . There is only ONE G-d and He is not human.
  
  Ezekiel 37:7 ". . .there arose a noise when I (Ezekiel) prophesied, and behold a 

  commotion, and the bones came together, bone to its bone! 8. And I looked, and 

  lo! sinews were upon them, and flesh came upon them, and skin covered them 

  from above, but there was still no spirit in them. 9. Then He said to me, "Prophesy 

  to the spirit, prophesy, O son of man, and say to the spirit, 'So says the L-rd G-d: 

  From four sides come, O spirit, and breathe into these slain ones that they may

   live.' 10. And I prophesied as He had commanded me, and the spirit came into 

  them, and they lived and stood on their feet, a very great army, exceedingly so. . ."
• 
  
• 

  Don Tan MB, I beg to differ, MDE and You laid the foundation, we are to read the

   Bible as literal.
  
  The author did not have to use the term, servant, his, a man i.e singular pronouns, 

  he could have used terms like SHEMA ISRAEL (O' ISRAEL) which is often 

  used in the plural.
  
  As far as, i see it, it is describing someone. You cannot arrive at an answer and work back-words. You should see if it is plausible and work from there.....
  
  I asked if HaShem allows false prophets to raise the dead, Yes or No ?
  
  There are more accounts of Yeshua's Historicity, if you want corroboration
  from non-jewish text. Roman, Greek and Jewish accounts. Tacitus, Plyny the Younger, Josephus....
  
  Other than the Exodus account which was corroborated by the Ipuwer Papyrus ,and

   the Shasu of Yahweh Hieroglyphics . Hebrew texts are not corroborated by 

  non-jewish texts, but i accept the Tanakh as a whole, as Divine.
  
  If you accept Ezekiel 37 as literal than you should also accept what is said
  in Isaiah 52 ~ 53 as literal. It is talking about someone. You can dispute who it is talking about.....

The Jewish Messiah Part I

Preface, continuing from my facebook conversation on Christianity. MB continues with

this statement

 The Jewish version of Messiah is very simple and is not something very mystic like 

what the Christian proclaimed.

• MB The Jewish messiah must be from the line of King David, is in the Tanach. 

   He is a human being like you and me, in literal form, will old and eventually die. 

  This is the messiah that originally supposed to be. Up until today – 

  the genealogy of King David is still recorded down.
  
  The Christians New Testament tried to link Jesus to King David. On one book, it 

  says he is from "David". On the other book in the NT, it says he is not from David?? 

  Whatever, Christians claimed that Jesus born from a virgin and is pregnant by a 

  holy spirit, not a human. All these disqualified to be the messiah anyway – no 

  matter how they wrote the genealogy of Jesus in the NT.
  
  The Christians are the anti-messiah (or anti christ, in their version/language) 

  because \they don’t recognize a man to be the messiah. The Christianity version 

  of messiah is very far from the Torah – Tanach which suppose to be.
  
  They have their mystical version. The Christianity messiah is jesus and he will 

  come back the 2nd time - can somehow fly down from sky, one leg touch the 

  ground, and then elevate up hanging half way in the sky.
  
  Any human that is not jesus (etc: a person line from King David) they will 

   regard as a false messiah and they (christian) will “help” the Jews remove 

  him. The Jews wanting to keep him, and they (christian) want to remove him. 

  Who is the anti – messiah? Is very clear.

  
  
• MB Christianity is placing a very dangerous bid to G-d when comes to 

  messianic age. Their believe is – “The Jews never repent, they don’t recognize 

  jesus as messiah, with that, Israel is in doom and problems with neighbors.

  If they accept jesus, wooo waaaaooo…..the world will be in peace.”
  
  From time to time, G-d is testing people to see if you believe him or believe a 

  human being. There are many many messiahs in the Tanach. Some are good and 

  some are really bad. There are good messiahs and there are bad messiahs.
  
  See:
  
  Deu 13:1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and 

  announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
  
  Deu 13:2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 

  "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
  
  Deu 13:3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD 

  your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and 

  with all your soul.
  
  Deu 13:4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. 

  Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.
  
  Deu 13:5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached 

   rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and 

  redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way 

  the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from 

  among you.

  
  
• 

  Don Tan M, To which i say, what is the benchmark, of who the Messiah is ?
  
  'The Jewish messiah must be from the line of King David, is in the Tanach. He

   is a human being like you and me, in literal form, will old and eventually die. 

  This is the messiah that originally supposed to be. Up until today – 
  the genealogy of King David is still recorded down'
  
  Yeshua's pedigree, I agree, is disputed. No need to argue back and forth
  about that topic. It's been, being, and continues to be debated.
  
  Secondly, the nature of the Messiah. I said, is he a mere man ? If he is the
  'Suffering Messiah' in Isaiah 53
  
  The Messiac will be the literal arm of Adonai
  Adonai יְהוָ֖ה ū·zə·rō·w·a‘ וּזְר֥וֹעַ ~ Isaiah 53
  
  Deu 13 i presume, refers to false prophets. Does HaShem allow false prophets, 

  to raise the dead ? How about feed 5 thousand ? How about knowing personal 

  history about peoples lives ? What would you consider as an except-able 

  benchmark ?
  
  Interestingly, in my discussions with Muslims on the 'Prophet' The
  Jews in Yathrib did the absolute opposite. They ask for proof i.e.
  signs or wonders, to which, he replied that he was only a plain warner
  surah 29:50
  
  Assume, i 've got it all wrong and all your assumptions are correct. Rabbi
  David Kimhi who wrote the Hebrew Gammatria is a believer in Micah's
  prophecy
  
  מיכה / Micah 5:2: But you, Beit-Lechem Efratah
  
  (Bethlehem Ephratah), Being small among the clans of
  
  Yehudah (Judah), Out of you one will come forth to me
  
  that is to be ruler in Yisra'el (Israel); Whose goings
  
  forth are from of old, from everlasting.
  
  I was in Bethlehem Ephratah. Soon to be a Palestinian only population,
  as Christian populations dwindle. If a Palestinian Messiah arises that can
  prove his pedigree, will you accept it ? You said Christianity is placing a
  dangerous bid on G-d. Are you sure, it's not, the other way around. Israel 

  is surrounded by 1.5 billion of this other proclaimed Abrahamic faith who
  actually wants to drive the Jews into the sea. Future events will happen
  as HaShem wills it, whether, we like it or not